[UPDATED 1,2,3,4] Why I still do not buy the Obama hype: who will stand up for our civil liberties?

A few days ago I wrote a diary about how the Democratic congress has sold us out on civil liberties and how Barack Obama (the great progressive that he is supposed to be) played along with them and gave a wishy-washy statement. Many people here said that when the time comes he will stand up against the bill. Guess what? The man we have nominated to the guardian of the constitution and its servant just flushed an important part of it down the sink.

But how did we get here in he first place? Why did the Democratic congress sell our civil liberties out and give blanket immunity to the corporations who broke the law and engaged in illegal wiretapping? Via the Left Coaster I came across this site Maplight which has a very interesting story about the FISA bill:

MAPLight.org's research department compiled PAC campaign contributions from Verizon, AT&T, and Sprint and correlated them with the voting records of all House members who voted on last week's FISA bill. (The analysis used data from CRP; contributions were from January 2005 through March 2008). Here are the findings:

Comparing Democrats' Votes (March 14th and June 20th votes):

Verizon, AT&T, and Sprint gave PAC contributions averaging:

$8,359 to each Democrat who changed their position to support immunity for Telcos (94 Dems)
$4,987 to each Democrat who remained opposed to immunity for Telcos (116 Dems)

88 percent of the Dems who changed to supporting immunity (83 Dems of the 94) received PAC contributions from Verizon, AT&T, or Sprint during the last three years (Jan. 2005-Mar. 2008). See below for list of these 94 Dems.

All House Members (June 20th vote:)
Verizon, AT&T, and Sprint gave PAC contributions averaging:

$9,659 to each member of the House voting "YES" (105-Dem, 188-Rep)
$4,810 to each member of the House voting "NO" (128-Dem, 1-Rep)

MAPLight.org's research department findings are based on the combination of contribution data from the Center for Responsive Politics (CRP) with voting data from THOMAS via GovTrack.us.

They even have a table documenting this travesty. So in other words we the people have been sold down the tubes. Democratic congress at work here.

But why am I outraged? Is it just the telecom immunity or is it more than just the bill? What is at stake here for all of us? I will let Russ Feingold explain:

When I posted my last post I had more than a few people making the outrageous claim that 90% of the country does not mind the government eavesdropping on your calls and email. Really? Well I guess they might not be living in the USA after all: Rasmussen Reports

One thing voters overwhelmingly agree, however, is that the government needs a search warrant if it wants internet providers or telecommunications companies to turn over customer records: 69% say so, as opposed to only 17% who say a search warrant is not necessary.
<snip>
By a slight margin in the new survey, voters say 44% to 41% that the telecommunications companies that cooperated with the government without a search warrant should be subject to lawsuits, but 15% are undecided. The findings reflect the partisan divide in Congress on the issue, with 59% of Democrats saying the companies should not have immunity, while 63% of Republicans think they should. Forty-six percent (46%) of unaffiliated voters oppose immunity compared to 40% who support it.

Which brings me back to the bill and sections 802 and 803. When the activities of the government is shrouded in secrecy, when you cannot see the warrant let alone get to challenge it how do you ask for accountability?

What does our presumptive nominee has to say about all this?

"The bill has changed. So I don't think the security threats have changed, I think the security threats are similar. My view on FISA has always been that the issue of the phone companies per se is not one that overrides the security interests of the American people."

Can he be any more misleading and obfuscating? We made the mistake once. We, nearly 80% of us, believed after 9/11 that Saddam Hussein was behind the tragedy of that day. 80% of us cheered ourselves into this disastrous war believing the president with blind faith. The chief cheerleaders were the "wise" men at the New Republic, Weekly Standard and National Review. Today they support Obama in this venture and Obama is playing to this crowd. Please do not make the same mistake again. We need us to protect our civil liberties even if it means taking one of our own to task.

Glenn Greenwald has a terrific post today about the progressive senate Democrats (even Harry Reid) lining up against this bill. I cannot say it any better than him so I will end with something that he wrote.

Glenn Greenwald again:

Beyond that, this attitude that we should uncritically support Obama in everything he does and refrain from criticizing him is unhealthy in the extreme. No political leader merits uncritical devotion -- neither when they are running for office nor when they occupy it -- and there are few things more dangerous than announcing that you so deeply believe in the Core Goodness of a political leader, or that we face such extreme political crises that you trust and support whatever your Leader does, even when you don't understand it or think that it's wrong. That's precisely the warped authoritarian mindset that defined the Bush Movement and led to the insanity of the post-9/11 Era, and that uncritical reverence is no more attractive or healthy when it's shifted to a new Leader.

What Barack Obama did here was wrong and destructive. He's supporting a bill that is a full-scale assault on our Constitution and an endorsement of the premise that our laws can be broken by the political and corporate elite whenever the scary specter of The Terrorists can be invoked to justify it. What's more, as a Constitutional Law Professor, he knows full well what a radical perversion of our Constitution this bill is, and yet he's supporting it anyway. Anyone who sugarcoats or justifies that is doing a real disservice to their claimed political values and to the truth.

Update

Senator Boxer on this bill:
Unfortunately, the FISA legislation the Senate will soon consider falls short of that standard. The bill would not only deny the Court the ability to finally make a determination as to the legality of the NSA program and the extent of the spying, but would effectively guarantee immunity for the telecommunications companies who violated the privacy of their customers. This provision will prevent us from finding out the truth. We can indemnify the telecom companies, but we should not shut down the legal process. I know that many of my colleagues in the Senate think we know enough about this program. But we do not know enough. The Bush administration trampled on the Constitution, and we are not doing anything in the bill to provide real accountability. If we vote for this FISA legislation, we are perpetuating a cover-up. I want to be clear -- I support giving our government every tool necessary to track down terrorists and protect our citizens. But we also have a responsibility to uphold the constitution and the rights of our citizens.

Update II

I am linking Senator Dodd's speech today and here is an excerpt of that speech:

Here is Rick Noriega who while running in a deep red state against one of the cheerleaders of this travesty (John Cornyn) has the courage to stand up to principles:

Update III

Thanks for putting this on the rec list. Many people have asked where is Hillary Clinton on all this. Fact is she is not running for POTUS anymore. We have a nominee who sided with a Democratic congress who sold us out on civil liberties. Right now someone might be monitoring this site and every word that I am typing. I hope like Sen. Schumer the junior senator from NY has the good sense to oppose this bill. However Greg Sargent put some of this into perspective:
Tea leaf readers note that Hillary's New York colleague, Chuck Schumer, also announced today that he's voting against it. Will Hillary follow suit? It seems like a huge opening for her to repair relations with progressives angry with her over her treatment of Obama during primary. On the other hand, some Dems note a complicating factor: If Hillary votes against the bill, it could cast a bit of a shadow over the planned "unity" Hillary-Obama event on Friday.
Added to that is the fact that he is helping her with $10 million campaign debt. I keep my fingers crossed and hope that she does not disappoint us as well.

Update IV

15 senators have stood up against this travesty. 15 only. Here they are:

NAYs ---15

Biden (D-DE) Boxer (D-CA) Brown (D-OH) Cantwell (D-WA) Dodd (D-CT) Durbin (D-IL) Feingold (D-WI) Harkin (D-IA) Kerry (D-MA) Lautenberg (D-NJ) Leahy (D-VT) Menendez (D-NJ) Sanders (I-VT) Schumer (D-NY) Wyden (D-OR)


Display:


1984 (1.88 / 18)

you are being watched


by tarheel74 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 07:48:27 PM EST

Re: 1984 (1.75 / 4)

rec'ed  and mojo and I got to click your highlighted name , read previous comments and see if I like , say 20 odd of them that I agree with and would love to mojo ;)


Rise / Repeat / But for god's sake don't spin!
by aliveandkickin on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 07:58:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1984 (1.66 / 3)

Obama in your video : " the issue of the phone companies per say ... does not override the secruity of the country.

Really senator it is now just an issue per say. Bill of rights is an issue that NSA EO circumvented.  

so you want to fight for per say " habeas corpus  rights of per say OSAMA and his pals in Gitmo" ... But law abiding citizens of this country per say" have no rights?


Rise / Repeat / But for god's sake don't spin!
by aliveandkickin on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 08:04:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1984 (2.00 / 2)

Your ignorance of the law has been demonstrated repeatedly.


by rfahey22 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 08:09:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1984 (1.75 / 4)

rfahey-- this from someone who did not brown v was re-dealt w/ this current court?


Rise / Repeat / But for god's sake don't spin!
by aliveandkickin on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 09:31:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1984 (2.00 / 2)

How can I expect to know what you're talking about if you don't even use the right case names?  Brown v. Board of Education was decided in 1954.  It has not been "re-dealt."  If you have a different case in mind, such as Parents Involved in Community Schools v. Seattle School District No. 1, which was decided in 2007, you should say so.


by rfahey22 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 09:42:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1984 (1.66 / 3)

come on guy.. your playing w/ words... it was a challenge on Brown vs  and nullified Brown vs.

Supreme Court ruling ending the use of voluntary schemes to create racial balance among students, it is time to acknowledge that Brown's time has passed.

5-4 majority of US Supreme Court renders
Brown v. Board of Education a dead letter


Rise / Repeat / But for god's sake don't spin!
by aliveandkickin on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 09:57:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1984 (2.00 / 2)

recc'd and mojoed


If you want Unity, nominate a Democrat
by rankles on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 02:17:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It's "per se" (2.00 / 2)

and you're welcome.


by BlueinColorado on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 09:00:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1984 (1.75 / 4)

Obama:     "The bill has changed. So I don't think the security threats have changed, I think the security threats are similar. My view on FISA has always been that the issue of the phone companies per se is not one that overrides the security interests of the American people."

DailyKos frontpage:

Obama's line on national security here seems to be affirmation of something that many understood already: That he will support the bill even if telecom immunity isn't stripped from it, despite his promise to try to get immunity out of the legislation. If the issue of telecom immunity doesn't override national security, he'll of course vote for the bill with or without it.


Rise / Repeat / But for god's sake don't spin!
by aliveandkickin on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 10:10:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Change anyone? can you please pass the (2.00 / 2)

hope and change around again or did I miss something the first time around?


by suzieg on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:16:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

have some hope, and have some change (none / 0)

he's better than the other guy, even if I do want to knock some sense into him.

Brown's on that list? We have a frosh standing for civil liberties? Impressive! (Casey, you still suck!)


yo mir kennen
by RisingTide on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 12:15:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1984 (1.25 / 8)

How nice of Papa McSame to look out for all of his minions and go back and mojo all of their comments. Such a good daddy.


by venician on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 08:08:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1984 (1.83 / 6)

spoken like a true believer. Now do you even use our faculties to think rationally and critically or is it just blind worship?


by tarheel74 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 08:27:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1984 (1.20 / 5)

Spoken like a bitter loser.


by venician on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 08:39:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1984 (1.87 / 8)

who clings to Bill of Rights


Rise / Repeat / But for god's sake don't spin!
by aliveandkickin on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 08:46:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

LMAO! Well played. (1.66 / 6)


by LatinoVoter on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 09:27:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LMAO! Well played. (1.50 / 4)

Oh why thank you. let me see if I can give you more mojo's by viewing your profile and reading your past comments that I respect...say maybe 20 of them? :)


Rise / Repeat / But for god's sake don't spin!
by aliveandkickin on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 09:42:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LMAO! Well played. (1.40 / 5)

Alive,

It looks like you have a fan...little spunky is following you around TRing you.

Moderators?


If you want Unity, nominate a Democrat
by rankles on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 02:18:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1984 (1.00 / 2)

Since when do repugs cling to the bill of rights?
You guys would rather see the 10 commandments posted on gov. buildings then the bill of rights.
by venician on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:15:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1984 (1.66 / 3)

Bitter loser?  Get over yourself- mindless Robot.


by easyE on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 12:09:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

BUSHED (1.75 / 4)

George bush :  'the reason we take these measures( to remove rights) is because of the security concerns for the country'


Rise / Repeat / But for god's sake don't spin!
by aliveandkickin on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 08:55:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sorry, your outrage is tainted by your history.... (2.00 / 4)

Tarheel, as a stone-cold Hillary supporter here (read your diaries before,) my money says you would have been defending her to the hilt had she made this choice?

At least the Kossacks are consistant, they are flaming Obama over this? Not really Obamabots, are they?

My take is, you Hillary supporters would have had her back on this, and been OUTRAGED that the Obama supporters couldn't have seen the political neccessity of not throwing Pelosi, Hoyer, Reid, Rockefeller ALL THOSE Demos in power in 9/11 who signed off on Cheney's dark side agenda.


On Nov 4th, Barack Obama officially ends the Southern Strategy....
by WashStateBlue on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 07:54:58 PM EST

But the diary isn't about Hillary - (2.00 / 9)

it's about Obama's vote.  He is the one who will be leading the country -

I'm not a Hillary supporter now - it's over.  Every criticism of Obama cannot be met with the Hillary come back.  


by Xanthe on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 07:59:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But the diary isn't about Hillary - (2.00 / 3)

Agreed,

But isn't it interesting the MOST outraged folks over here are the Hillary folks?

See, I left Kos-land, because the Obama folks WERE just Armor- on-fanatics?  Too pure for my blood.

But, I did notice over here, the purity "defend at all cost" were the Hillary folks? Like Tar-heel?

My take stands: Tar heel would have been defending this stance by Hillary to the max?

And, I would have agreed?  

It sucks, but this is the time for political expediency, and saving the ass of YOUR party, not burning in to the ground?

Besides, Senator Clinton MIGHT have been one of the high mucky-mucks who got a first hand view of UbenFuherer Cheney's plans?

We have had, What, TEN of these diaries? All authored by ON RECORD Hillary supporters?

Coincidence?  Nope.

As I said, proves one thing?

At Kos-land, hard core Obama supporters are ripping him for this...

Never would have happened here with the Clinton supporters, like Tarhell, were the roles reversed.


On Nov 4th, Barack Obama officially ends the Southern Strategy....
by WashStateBlue on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 08:06:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But the diary isn't about Hillary - (1.90 / 10)

coulda woulda shoulda....this is now. We have a nominee and are we supposed to step back and appalaud every decision he makes even though it is such a travesty?


by tarheel74 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 08:25:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But the diary isn't about Hillary - (2.00 / 2)

Show me one comment where you have said one positive thing about Obama...Shit I have written 3 pro-pieces on HRC, what about you?


Toot, thank you for raising such a terrific person...You done good and we will have you in our hearts.
by hootie4170 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 08:30:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But the diary isn't about Hillary - (1.83 / 6)

Once again this is now. I did not support Obama because I truly believed that Senator Clinton will fight for our civil liberties and progressive democratic values. But now he is the nominee and while we have to support him we cannot and should not do so uncritically.


by tarheel74 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 08:37:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But the diary isn't about Hillary - (2.00 / 2)

Really, so where is hillary on the FISA bill?


by venician on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 08:40:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But the diary isn't about Hillary - (1.80 / 5)

is Hillary Clinton the nominee? is she going to be the next POTUS?


by tarheel74 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 09:20:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But the diary isn't about Hillary - (2.00 / 3)

Isn't Hillary Clinton still a Senator?


Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.
by mistersite on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 09:36:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But the diary isn't about Hillary - (2.00 / 3)

Nominee or not, I was under the impression that each senator got 1 vote.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 10:54:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary voted for PATRIOT ACT twice. Obama once. (none / 0)

I didn't support either until there were no alternatives left.




Democratic Candidate, US Senate, Wisconsin 2012
by benmasel on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 11:03:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

thanks for not voting for gravel! (none / 0)


yo mir kennen
by RisingTide on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 12:19:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Might being the operative word but... (none / 0)

we have to focus on Sen. Obama now.  After all, he probably will be leading the country, affecting us all.  

And to see diaries like yours - and believe me I get your point - before he is even in office offering excuses for him.  It's ominous.  

I believe many Hillary supporters have said they would vote Obama.  


by Xanthe on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 08:36:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Might being the operative word but... (none / 0)

I'm certainly going to, the choice is pretty obvious to me.
But let's look at the alternative:
McCain: will do anything to "win" in Iraq. Afghanistan? Who knows?
McCain: wants to bomb Iran.
McCain: supports torture

What about civil liberties?

McCain: thinks Bush's "unitary executive ("If the president does it, it's legal"- R. Nixon)is worth exploring.
He chided SCOTUS for upholding habeas corpus.

Yeah, I'm sure we need 4 more years of the Bush doctrines to get this country back on track.

I don't need to make excuses for Obama (or for Hillary, who is voting the same way).
We can't afford to be purists right now.


"Who are you for? That is the wrong question. It should be who is for you?" HRC
by skohayes on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 09:17:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You say purists - (2.00 / 1)

I say defenders of the Constitution -

He's conceding early on - but we disagree - Hillary is not running for president. he's the one I'm watching.    

Again - he came in on the I'm different from Washington insiders' ticket - well, let's see if he is.  

As a Cook county resident - I couldn't be more cynical.  He works well with Chicago and Cook County pols.  

I'm on my way to the assessor's office now - being taxed out of my home --

I never intended to vote for McCain - so you're preaching to the choir -


by Xanthe on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 10:13:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Wrong (none / 0)

I seriously doubt anyone here is more outraged than me, and I was an Anybody-But-Hillary primary voter.

Well, maybe not anybody, but pretty close. There was Gravel...


by odum on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 09:18:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I Trust some of those Hillary supporters (none / 0)

people like sriki (i can't spell).

I would understand, if they were backing hillary on this, that they meant it for anyone who might have said this.

A good deal of Hillary democrats are in it for the long haul, and i'll bet a few are laughing at the young un's getting an education.

Word to the wise: young un's can be wise too.


yo mir kennen
by RisingTide on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 12:18:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Your concerns have been noted (1.75 / 8)

nt


by libertyleft on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 07:55:42 PM EST

Uprated because of (2.00 / 4)

Xov Wonk's troll support.


Gobama!
by USArmyParatrooper on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 10:52:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Uprated because of (2.00 / 2)

So did know vox get banned and make that name or is it just a homage?


by libertyleft on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 11:09:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Uprated because of (2.00 / 1)

No idea. Looking at this history he or she is obviously anti-Obama.


Gobama!
by USArmyParatrooper on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 11:20:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Uprated because of (1.00 / 2)

guess you better frag him then. after all you goota keep "your" party "pure"...


by zerosumgame on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:30:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Uprated because of (2.00 / 1)

guess truth hurts huh. poor baby!


by zerosumgame on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 10:10:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"We need better trolls" (1.50 / 4)

amen


Gobama!
by USArmyParatrooper on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 08:00:04 PM EST

Re: "We need better trolls" (1.25 / 4)

At least the following recommenders of this diary are specifically interested in destroying Barack Obama and his bid for the presidency:

grlpatriot
domma
Radiowalla
NewHampster
cameoanne

They all have accounts at the site that contains posts such as:

we're only as relevant as they make us ;-) (4.00 / 3)
...but you KNOW how they whine about everything. after that crazy diary by linfar, i'm convinced most of our publicity comes from the other side.

Which also goes to the point of ignoring trolls....

-chris


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:26:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

it is creepy that you would do that (2.00 / 2)

but copying and pasting comments from another site just adds to the rancor. I am not tr'ing you but you do deserve it. This diary is about civil liberties. Look at the comments and see the number of people who are willing to give that fundamental right a pass. Hell there is even a recommended diary that says it is okay to lose this right as long as we get to be in power. Is this what you want? Is this what we are fighting for? Then why bother with trivialities like the election and constitution? If we are willing to validate the Republican policies let's just vote Republican or better still appoint W president for life.


by tarheel74 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:32:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It is creepy (none / 0)

and I hestitated in posting that here, in a diary that is (as I said above) actaully well written whether I disagree with it entirely (and I do) or not.

I was just interested in the rec list and spent some time over at the site where that comment came from, wondering how many of the folks who recced this were interested in winning the GE and how many really really want the Dems to lose.  Each of these folks has pointed comments pulling for a loss in November, so overall it is fair to point that out (though a diary discussing the issue would have been more appropriate, and we got those already).

I put in that comment in because when I saw it I was literally revolted, and I thought it made my point for me as well as making the point I added below it.

Honestly, I'd take a TR for that comment without complaint.  In the effort to keep the discourse flowing on MyDD I am considering whether it is appropriate to list the entire membership of that site here on MyDD someplace, but this diary really isn't the place for it.

-christ


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 02:08:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, you are creepy (2.00 / 1)

This is the second time today on this site that someone has singled me out by name.  At least you didn't call me a "douche."

I really resent the implication that I want Obama to fail and I really, really resent being called a racist (not you, but someone else).

For the record:  I was a strong supporter of Hillary Clinton.  I have always said that I will vote for Obama in November because I am not insane enough to want McCain anywhere near the Oval Office.
I am furious about the Democratic party's primary process and have resigned from the party in protest.  I'd rather see a candidate with more experience and fortitude as the nominee, but my choice didn't win.  So be it.  I do not trash Obama nor do I give mojo to those who do.  On the other hand, I will not tolerate the oppression and silencing of dissent.  


by Radiowalla on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 12:37:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Always=the past two days? (1.25 / 4)

really resent the implication that I want Obama to fail and I really, really resent being called a racist (not you, but someone else).

For the record:  I was a strong supporter of Hillary Clinton.  I have always said that I will vote for Obama in November because I am not insane enough to want McCain anywhere near the Oval Office.

Compare and contrast:

http://www.mydd.com/comments/2008/6/3/02 328/08653/137#137

I showed my thanks (none / 0)

to the Democratic Party by registering as an independent yesterday.

And he'll be lucky if he gets my vote in November.


by Geekesque on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 03:02:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It is creepy (none / 0)

Chris, I have to echo Radiowalla's sentiments exactly in response to you.  I may/may not have an account at Alegre's Blog, whatever it is - frankly, I've never posted there and don't visit that site.

You made a pretty strong statement that does not represent a personal goal of mine - and then attributed user names to it.  I am not saying that I shouldn't be on some "other list" that you want to make up but, frankly, I do hate these "Call Out" posts/diaries regardless of who does them.  I don't see any value to them.

As someone pointed out in the past few weeks, some members may "Recommend" a Diary - not necessarily because they agree with it in it's entirety - but perhaps it's an interesting discussion, food for thought, or the Comments are poignant.

I'm tired of nastiness and all for more civility here - especially in the Comments - even though members may have different points of view.  Chris, no hard feelings, really.  StudentGuy made a huge effort for party unity here for awhile.  Someone that I currently admire and truly appreciate lately is Reaperbot!  


by cameoanne on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 03:07:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And sorry, linfar, for that (none / 0)

it wasn't meant to pick your wounds (at least not by me, the author of the quoted comment, campskunk, I won't speak for).


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 02:12:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: it is creepy that you would do that (2.00 / 1)

tarheel, if it wasn't this issue it would be another. You can't post a single diary without trying to go after the Democratic nominee... on a DEMOCRATIC blog.

Let's trace back to your previous diaries, shall we?

[UPDATED 1, 2, 3] Why I still do not buy the Obama hype: who will stand up for our civil liberties?

Why I still do not buy the Obama hype

Seat the Michigan Delegates....NOW (Obama's political cynicism on display)

Obama Fans: how much lower can they get?

(updated) The Shamelessness of the Obama Campaign

(updated) Obama Fans: let's suppress the women's votes

Welcome to PanderFest: Barack Does Fox II

Whither lefty blogs? Where are your howls of outrage?

That's quite a list you got going on there. I mean, look at all that Hillary Clinton support. At least on page one you haven't written one single diary about her. One might say you're obsessed with Clinton, but on the contrary, you seem obsessed with Barack. You know, the Democratic nominee who's running for President? You know, the ONLY guy who can stop a third Bush term?

I apologize for calling you a troll. I'm so sorry for calling an apple and apple. Fine, you're a bright red orange with a stem on top. An orange a day keeps the doctor away.


Gobama!
by USArmyParatrooper on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 02:50:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: it is creepy that you would do that (2.00 / 4)

it is this type of mindless sycophancy and cultish behavior that I am railing against. I never bought into the Obama hype and say so up front. You on the other hand cannot refute a single point made by this or any other diary. Because you cannot defend the indefensible it is easier for you to shoot the messenger. Yeah well the Obama democrats are acting very much like Bush republicans in that aspect. And that worries me.


by tarheel74 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 08:41:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: it is creepy that you would do that (2.00 / 1)

Why is it creepy? One has only to click on your user name to look at your history on this blog.
I do it quite frequently with names that aren't familiar to me.
Look at some of the other anti-Obamaites here that click on a user name and uprate or down rate all the comments on the list, simply because that particular poster agrees or disagrees with their point of view.
Is that cultish behavior?

What about LJ's crowd, alleged former "supporters" of Clinton, who now say they don't support her anymore, it's about destroying Obama? The misogynists who rail about sexism in the media, but think nothing of applauding a comment about Michelle Obama that says she is "ugly and coarse"?
Now, that is truly bizarre behavior if you ask me.


"Who are you for? That is the wrong question. It should be who is for you?" HRC
by skohayes on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 09:34:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: it is creepy that you would do that (2.00 / 1)

again off topic. do you have something to say about the FISA compromise? If not then don't waste my time.


by tarheel74 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 09:36:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: it is creepy that you would do that (none / 0)

Because when ALL YOU DO on a Democratic blog is whine and complain about the Democratic nominee your motives are rightfully called into question. I have no problem with discussing valid issues, even if those issues are unfavorable to Barack Obama. But I'm not going to discuss those issues with someone that I can't take seriously.  

I am a true Obama supporter and NO, I do not think he is perfect. I happen to disagree with him on certain issues, like capital punishment. But you know what? No candidate can be everything to everyone.

Are you a progressive? If so, how many issues to you agree with OUR DEMOCRATIC nominee on? If you say none then you're not truly a progressive. And yet the entire theme of your existence here is based around bashing him. You want to talk about creepy? THAT is creepy.


Gobama!
by USArmyParatrooper on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 03:25:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: it is creepy that you would do that (2.00 / 1)

I stopped taking you seriously when I realized you are the kind of person who is willing to forgo his civil liberties because of blind faith. Anyway nice talking to you.
http://blog.indecision2008.com/2008/06/2 5/barack-obama-vs-barack-obama-supporter s/
by tarheel74 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 03:38:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Have fun. And have..... (1.50 / 2)

a tarheel74 action figure.

Troll


Gobama!
by USArmyParatrooper on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 03:47:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

*snort* I get troll rated every time (none / 0)

someone says that all the Obama supporters are mindless syncophants. Believe it or not, the majority of them were behind Edwards! Like me, for example.

I hold to the principle that everyone running for President since Carter has been an asshole, and they will all continue to be assholes. This doesn't meant that they don't have good qualities... but some things float to the top.


yo mir kennen
by RisingTide on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 12:23:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "We need better trolls" (none / 0)

isn't this "calling out" of "recommenders" really bullying them into not recommending, as if their opinions should be shunned by you and your "friends" in this playground?

how exactly should they respond to this bullying?  i just read how you did when you were 12....but did you  not learn your own ways to bully those who disagree with you?


by jentwisl on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:27:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "We need better trolls" (2.00 / 1)

I am giving a hide rate to this brown shirt tactic and then I am recommending the diary in solidarity of those you have called out.  What is it you imagine you are doing anyway?


by Teacher1956 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 12:03:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

While the criticism is (1.85 / 7)

warranted on this issue and Obama's cave in on the telecom immunity, your diary will be met with the usual stuf: you were a Clinton supporter, so you have no gravitas to make any observation.

You'll be called names, told to STFU and generally be laughed at:  don't despair, in the end it might just be the phones of some of those folks doing all those things to you who actually get 'bugged'.


Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?
by emsprater on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 08:10:07 PM EST

Re: While the criticism is (2.00 / 3)

But how many diaries do we need on this?  We get it some people are pissed off on his stance...After a while it becomes very noticeable that some people's only agenda is to tear down Obama.

It would be different if these "diarists" wold author a pro-Obama piece or actually add solutions or substance to their complaints.

It's usually Obama's a flip-flopper, he sucks....Obama's a typical politician, I told you so....It gets old...


Toot, thank you for raising such a terrific person...You done good and we will have you in our hearts.
by hootie4170 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 08:28:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: While the criticism is (1.80 / 5)

On the contrary, I think it comes back up again today because it's 'in the news' that the fillibuster attempted to stop this maddness has failed.

That's why more diaries today, and by the way, why is it that NOW it's suddenly wrong to have more than one diary on a subject?  I don't seem to remember that rule in the past.


Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?
by emsprater on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 08:51:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: While the criticism is (2.00 / 2)

i think 8-10 cover it...but I see you didn't address my other points


Toot, thank you for raising such a terrific person...You done good and we will have you in our hearts.
by hootie4170 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 09:00:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: While the criticism is (1.75 / 4)

seeing your only other point was another baseless smear against anyone who disagrees with you, be grateful it was not addressed


by zerosumgame on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 12:13:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: While the criticism is (2.00 / 1)

Odd, I had no idea that anyone who made commentary to this blog were obligated to address each and every 'point'  in each and every comment they respond to.

The rest of what you call 'points' were actually just digs at Clinton supporters, and had nothing positive  in their nature.  That's why I didn't 'respond' to them.

Go back and look at my comment:  now tell me that there is still not partisanship here, alive and well and still dividing us.  One of your cohorts decided to TR my entirely non confrontational non TR-able comment.  

I'm on record here as stating I will vote for 'your guy' (who now I suppose, lamentably, is also 'my guy'), yet that isn't enough for some of you because I had the audacity to support Hillary first.

Sorry, not everyone sees life through your eyes.


Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?
by emsprater on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 09:37:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: While the criticism is (2.00 / 1)

ohh you sent your sockpuppet to do your 'dirty work'! LOL how McLame of you :)


by zerosumgame on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:29:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: While the criticism is (none / 0)

Sockpuppet???   I've been here a while...Nice try...


Toot, thank you for raising such a terrific person...You done good and we will have you in our hearts.
by hootie4170 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:53:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This is not about Hillary Clinton (1.87 / 8)

This is about the presumptive nominee of the Democratic party, this is about the Democratic congress who gave us this travesty and this is about CIVIL LIBERTIES. If people are so obtuse as to follow every travesty blindly just because "Obama said so" then they deserve everything thing that comes to them from here on. In 2000 we went down this road once. This is to remind us not to make the same mistake. We are Democrats, we are supposed to be the ones supporting civil rights and civil liberties. If we do not stand up to this then we might as well vote Republican.


by tarheel74 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 08:21:50 PM EST

So Clinton is part of the problem (none / 0)

not the WHOLE problem. Got it.

And Obama is a bigger part of the problem!


yo mir kennen
by RisingTide on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 12:25:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So Clinton is part of the problem (2.00 / 1)

it is strange that even though we have a nominee and the de facto leader of the Democratic party all his supporters can do to justify his actions is view everything from the Clinton lens....What would Hillary do? (just like Bush supporters who spent 8 years asking what would Bill do?) Well she is not our nominee. So while I want her to speak out against this bill (and I am disappointed that she did not), I want Obama to do it more vehemently because he is the nominee and the leader of the party.


by tarheel74 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 12:30:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

yes, that's exactly what I mean! (none / 0)

obama has the leader mantle, and the sword of damocles. Hillary is somewhere down the table, eating peacefully. But they're both feasting on the bodies of their children.

Okay, this analogy went officially too far.

Forgive me.


yo mir kennen
by RisingTide on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 12:42:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why I still do not buy the Obama hype: where i (2.00 / 3)

The meme that somehow Obama supporters are blind followers of a "Leader" has been put forward by Hillary supporters and the right wing. It couldn't be further from the truth. If it was true, wouldn't dkos be trying to defend Obama on this issue instead of castigating him? Notice how Greenwald slipped in a couple of references about that. One was where he capitalized leader and where he implies Obama's followers give him "uncritical devotion". I've become tired of this false claim.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 08:26:27 PM EST

Re: Why I still do not buy the Obama hype: where i (1.80 / 5)

one has just to see the comments in this diary and the previous one. Or visit the forums on TPM. The fact is a big chunk of people are uncritically supporting him. Check out how many of his supporters have spoken against this in HuffPo....not many.


by tarheel74 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 08:32:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why I still do not buy the Obama hype: where i (2.00 / 2)

How does not saying anything equate to support? For all you know the ones staying quiet may be doing so because they are embarrassed by his stance.

Could you show me a comment in this diary that shows blind allegiance to Obama?


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 08:52:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That's my point. (none / 0)

I am not going out of my way to draw attention to what I see as Sen. Obama's weak points, whether they be actual mistakes or Bittergate-style political attacks.

That does not equate to the "blind support" so often asserted.  I want to see him elected, so aside from blogging about my own thoughts I try to support his candidacy when I can.

I wrote my thoughts on FISA in a diary on the topic.  These in fact are my views, and whatever criticism I could come up with will wait until I see how it works out, and after he is elected.  By withholding public criticism of him during his campaign I am not stating blind support any more than Republicans who hold their tongues when McCain makes a fool out of himself are.

That being said, even during an election I think it is good that people criticize politicians so the conversation is not bad all in all.  There remains a difference, however, between honest criticism (like some on the rec list) and blatant ill-will (like some others on the rec list, and yes grlpatriot I am thinking about you, and feeling disappointed doing so).

-chris


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 12:57:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why I still do not buy the Obama hype: where i (2.00 / 3)

I'm also really disappointed with his position on this issue.  I don't see why its necessary, and its wrong.

Although only 15 Senators noted they'd oppose cloture (Kennnedy and Byrd didn't vote since they're still recovering, and McCain, Obama, and Clinton didn't vote either).  So this is a problem throughout our caucus.  Apparently, our Senators don't realize how important this issue is to us.  


Saxby Chambliss
by bosdcla14 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 08:33:42 PM EST

It's fine to criticize him for his FISA stance (2.00 / 5)

I have done so.  But to say he is "misleading and obfuscating" and compare it to Iraq is just silly.  He says he thinks the security benefits of the bill outweigh the civil liberties costs.  

You can disagree with that position.  I do.  But to say he's misleading is ridiculous.  He stated his position and the reasons therefore quite clearly.  Argue against it without baseless ad hominem.


by JJE on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 08:39:38 PM EST

Re: It's fine to criticize him for his FISA stance (1.75 / 4)

how s this bill ny different than the bullshit we were fed called Patriot Act? But the greater point is if we do not make the noise now, if we are reduced to a vocal minority we will be dismissed like we were before the Iraq war. Then many senator voted for that bill because of "elections" and "national security issues" however honorable their intentions might have been...the rest is history.


by tarheel74 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 08:43:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

for such a talented orator (none / 0)

he sure looked like he fumbled this one! (it did sound unclear and jibberish. he still holds a reasonably clear position, but the wording was horrid).


yo mir kennen
by RisingTide on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 12:26:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why I still do not buy up for civil liberties? (2.00 / 4)

I think this is an importanbt diary with good research. I didn't know about the contributions. I support Obama as the nominee. But I think we all need to state our point of view and clearly look at what is hapening on FISA. Boxer, Schumer, Reid, Feingold, we are seeing a real standing up here. And it needs to be supported and applauded. thanks tarheel. rec'ced


by linfar on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 09:00:20 PM EST

Why I still do not buy the Obama hype (2.00 / 5)

As I understand it, the Democratic Congress has a lower rating than everyone or anything, including the Republican congress.  I heard that on the news tonight so I don't have any polls to show you.  I think that people are really disappointed in what happened after they trusted in Democrats in 2006 and voted them in thinking they were like the old democrats of the 80s and would actually do something.  They have got to get their shit together, all of them.  I am disgusted. I am also disappointed that Obama made a comment indicating that he believes in the death penalty for child rapists.  Come on, what is this a free for all?  Does anyone stand for anything and follow through with it anymore?


by Scotch on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 09:44:47 PM EST

Re: Why I still do not buy the Obama hype (2.00 / 3)

Republicans look upon this congress more favorably and they might as well because even though they are the minority they seem to be calling all the shots here.


by tarheel74 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 09:52:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm just curious... (2.00 / 1)

Where do you think Senator Clinton would be standing on this issue in Obama's position?


by Pragmatic Left on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 09:47:13 PM EST

Re: I'm just curious... (1.66 / 3)

I have an update about this.


by tarheel74 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 09:51:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm just curious... (2.00 / 2)

Good work.  I think you have a valid point.

It is impossible to say for sure where she would fall on this, though the 2002 war vote and the Kyl-Lieberman vote inspire very little confidence.

Don't get me wrong -- I am not trying to brush off Obama's apparent shortcomings on this issue (we'll see what actually goes down in the Senate.)  Watching Obama and Clinton fall all over eachother to be the last person to vote on the Iraq supplemental last year around this time was disappointing, and why I had hopes Chris Dodd would achieve some traction.  True, they both voted the right way in the end, but they both also missed opportunities to demonstrate real courage and leadership in the process.

Obama has indicated that he will work to improve this bill before it is voted on, so I hope he can achieve some results.  We'll see.  At the very least, I am confident President Obama will take over soon enough to turn this law into what he really wants.  The GOP members of the legislature will be more than happy to reign back some of the absurd amounts of power they have ceded to the executive branch over the past 8 years once they finally have a Democrat wielding it.


by Pragmatic Left on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 10:36:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm just curious... (1.00 / 1)

The war vote can be equated to this one. The Democrats who support this bill as they did the war vote probably had the most honorable intentions but they were wrong. Wrong to trust anyone in power with so much authority.
As far as KL vote goes, Obama ducked that one and he co-sponsored a similar if not more aggressive legislation called The Iran Counter Proliferation Act. (http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/ soft_on_iran.html). Well it makes neither one of them right. But that is a different issue this is now and affects our civil liberties very directly.
by tarheel74 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 11:51:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks for the link (2.00 / 1)

I read the whole thing. It shows that Barack Obama is tough on terrorism AND uses good judgment.


Gobama!
by USArmyParatrooper on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 06:15:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm just curious... (none / 0)

Democrats who supported the war vote, by and large, thought the war would be easy and that it would be politically disadvantageous to lead on the issue.  I do not ascribe good intentions, but rather poor judgment and political weakness to their decision.

In that way, this is similar.  The difference is that this bill will not empower the Bush administration for very long.  

Don't get me wrong or lead to a war that will kill thousands of Americans and tens of thousands of people.  It's still a mistake -- but a far easier one to undo.

Thanks for posting that link by the way.  It shows that Obama has profound judgment on Iran and is capable of providing the nuance necessary to serve as commander in chief.  I'd say it makes a good case for Jim Webb as VP choice too.


by Pragmatic Left on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 07:40:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm just curious... (2.00 / 2)

first off you brought up KL to bash Sen. Clinton with bad judgment and I show you how Obama co-sponsored a similar bill (not sense of senate as KL) and now you say that it shows nuance. So objectivity is not your strong suit. Secondly I never hid the fact that I do not buy into the Obama hype. I never did. I always believed that he was a politician who will say and do anything to win. I said that before and I say it now except now I am being proven right. I never believed that he will stand up for us (Iraq war bill...we do not know and if this is a small indication then he would have voted with the rest of the senator like John Kerry and John Edwards), I never saw him lead on Iraq. He speaks of bipartisanship and consensus building..I cal it selling out and again losing my privacy is more paramount to me than following the leader. The bigger question now is he is the nominee and so are we supposed to toe the line uncritically? You did not refute a single point in the diary because even you cannot defend the indefensible. But as Colbert said this is change that some people can believe because this new style of politics is just like the old style.


by tarheel74 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 08:38:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm just curious... (none / 0)

By defining preventing Iranian involvment in Iraq as "a critical national interest", Kyl-Liberman essentially creates a situation in which the administration can argue that an attack against Iran is, as acknowledged by congress, would be legal.  It  also could be construed as a justification for our continued presence in Iraq.

This is a far cry from publicly recognizing that the IRGC is sponsor of terror, an accurate and necessary acknowledgement.

Evidently intellectual honesty isn't your strong suit.

I will be the first to admit that in this way, it is very similar to how I see this FISA vote.  I am troubled by it, and though I am reserving final judgment until the bill is passed, disappointed in Obama for supporting it.

My problem with this diary is that you come at this not as a way to debate and encourage action on FISA, but to validate your preconceived notions of Obama.  Not only was Obama right on arguing against voting on Iraq, he was right on what would happen if we ignored his advice.  In the first month of the Democratic congress, Obama introduced a bill that would have all combat troops out of Iraq by March of this year.  

You are right -- Kerry and Edwards did vote for the AUMF, and paid the same price that Hillary Clinton is now justly paying.  Don't pretend there was any unanimity in the party on this though.  21 Democrats voted against it.  This, coupled with Obama's very clear argument against it, do little to validate your attempt at spinning it now.

I do NOT suggest we should be uncritical of Obama -- I called him out in a comment on this very diary over his (and Hillary's) failure to lead over the summer on war funding.

But this diary exists only to criticize the nominee, and your history does little to demonstrate that you have decided to approach this debate honestly.


by Pragmatic Left on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:09:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm just curious... (none / 0)

It is quite evident that you do not know much about the IRGC bill. First the AUMF allows the president of the US to declare war on any country that harbors terrorist. So in a way the Obama co-sponsored bill paints the IRG as terrorists and allows the POTUS to go to war without any prior authorization of the congress based on the existing AUMF. That is why Sen. Webb acted to reduce the subsequent KL bill to a state of senate, a non-binding resolution. So this again shows that without critical thinking you follow Obama quite blindly. I had problems with Hillary voting for KL but I defended her from the likes of you who only shouted Kyl-Lieberman without acknowledging the fact that a bill already exists that was co-sponsored by Obama and Clinton that already brands the IRG as a terrorist group in the US thus allowing the POTUS to wage war on Iran. That is hypocritical to say the least.

Secondly Obama did stand up against the Iraq war when he was running for Senate. Since then he did not do a single thing. In fact based on what we see now I highly doubt if he would have voted against that bill. What the Democratic senators did then however good their intentions might have been was a shame.

But the bigger point is this: based on what we see now there are people like you who would support Obama uncritically. The Obama democrats now sound very much like the Bush republicans who abhorred any criticism of their president. We were promised a new type of politics, a change and what I saw this week and how his followers have fawned over him uncritically has made me even more skeptical. Obama is obviously better than McCain, but using that canard by itself is not good enough. We went that road before in 2004 (anybody's better than Bush) and that worked out brilliantly.


by tarheel74 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:27:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

of note: I do remember Clark (none / 0)

saying something about sanctions in regards to the particular language you're discussing. Maybe you ought to look up his kospost on the subject? (what he said was way down in the comments)


yo mir kennen
by RisingTide on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 12:30:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Strange, you can't make a point without insult. (none / 0)

First off: I am ABSOLUTELY critical of Obama.  Niether Obama, nor Edwards, were my first choice in the election.  I have made the case several times is this thread that I think he has had an imperfect record of seizing the opportunity to lead, but that does not change the fact that Kyl-Lieberman is fundamentally different from the ICPA.  FISA is a bad bill, the ICPA was reasonable in my opinion.

Here are some key differences -- specifically, that Obama's bill included the following items NOT included in KL, which Hillary voted for:

   (7) The United States should use all political, economic, and diplomatic tools at its disposal to prevent Iran from acquiring a nuclear weapons capability.

   (8) Nothing in this Act should be construed as giving the President the authority to use military force against Iran.

You will also find no mention of Iraq in Obama's bill, but you will find plenty of reference in KL, a good deal of which is largely unsubstantiated.

Second: I gave a specific example of Obama standing up recently on the war, not during his senate campaign, and I will also point out that Obama's criticism of the Iraq war predates his senate run, back to when it was actually an unpopular position to take.  Your assertion is based on baseless insuation, mine is based on his actual statements at the time and his record on the issue since.

This diary is pathetic and your comments have further reinforced that you are not an honest and impartial messenger.

You appear so consumed with rage about the primary that fact and honest discourse are irrelevant to you.  I get it, you don't like Obama.  Too bad you never demonstrated your ability to apply your outrage in any manner other than selectively.  There is nothing wrong with being critical of the party or its nominee, so long as the criticism is rational, consistent, and constructive.  This fails on at least two of these counts.

I'm done with you.  Enjoy your spin.


by Pragmatic Left on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:54:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm just curious... (1.50 / 2)

One more point, however magnanimous President Obama's intentions might be this bill is still wrong and flies in the face of the constitution. So for him to even support it is just bad all around.


by tarheel74 on